In the eleventh episode of the People in Housing Podcast, we're joined by Gemma Brooks, Energy Strategy Manager at Orbit Housing Association, to discuss he future of decarbonisation in social housing, and the challenges and opportunities that come with it. 

In this conversation, Gemma shares her journey from domestic energy assessments to leading Orbit's energy statement, offering a grounded view on what it really takes to balance net zero targets with tenant affordability and asset investment. We dive into key topics including the price disparity between gas and electricity, the importance of collaboration between internal teams and external contractors, and the need to align retrofit, building safety, and asset management into a unified strategy.

Thanks very much for coming on. First of all, glad to have you on. If you just want to provide an overview of your career to date and what's brought you here.

Yeah. So I'm Gemma Brooks. I'm the Energy Strategy Manager at Orbit Housing Association. So I joined Orbit about four and a half years now. Previous to that I was actually in domestic energy assessment, so I did that for about three years, which is where I gained my knowledge of SAP. Joined Orbit initially to do kind of retrofit surveys and look at kind of our stock and noticed there was a bit of a gap around kind of that data, that strategy element, which is where I suppose carved my career from. Orbit has been a fantastic organisation for my personal growth. Whilst being at Orbit I got my qualifications in retrofit assessment, retrofit coordination. I most recently finished my Masters in Building Services Engineering at Loughborough University. So that's kind of where I've got to and I suppose my career route to now.

Fine. And what's led you down m the retrofit path? What's brought you onto it?

I think my key learnings from SAP and understanding how standard assessment procedure, which is the methodology behind EPCs, that really carved the way because that's kind of the terminology around retrofit. That's the key performance indicator.

I think why I'm so passionate about my role at Orbit and why I love my role at Orbit so much. It's balancing that retrofit aspect and that decarbonisation and delivering that to some of the most vulnerable customers in society to really make a difference. And sometimes it can be quite hard to balance those two together. And I think that's where my passion for retrofit has really come along. My dad also worked in social housing growing up, so that was fantastic to see that career that he paved out for himself too.

Brilliant. What did your dad do in social housing?

So he's a CEO of a smaller housing organisation. So I always take the nick a little bit. He's so proud to see me now go into social housing, which is a route I never thought go down. I don't think anybody at 18 goes, “hey, what do I want to be? I want to work in social housing”.

I've done a fair bit on retrofit recently. It's a growing area of our market and what we recruit into. Obviously we see a lot of challenges from the recruitment standpoint, but what do you see as the main challenges currently in the sector?

I think there's quite a lot of challenges. I think one of the massive challenges I see towards kind of decarbonisation, so electrification of our assets is the price disparity at the moment we're seeing with electricity and gas price disparity.

And that's one of the key killers in trying to transform our properties over from fossil fuels to electrification. I think that's kind of a macro environment impact and I think it's been really promising, seeing the discussions I'm seeing over LinkedIn and in the news where people are flagging this now. And I do think the government is making good progress towards that. So I think that's that macro environment challenge.

In terms of social housing, I think we need to get the right skill sets inside, understanding retrofit assessments, coordination and overseeing. Orbit takes a real care, positioning, kind of auditing, retrofit assessments and coordination that come into our portfolio to ensure we make the right decisions. And I think it's that blend of understanding what we need to do towards decarbonisation, but also blending that with our asset investment. And that's where you're going to get those fiscal true benefits, so aligning those two.

But I do think for social housing in general, we've got a lot of competing priorities at the moment. Changing building safety, Awaab’s Law coming out in October, lots of competing priorities with procurement as well. And if you add decarb into that, and then also the push from the government now to build more affordable homes, there's a lot of competing priorities for people, but also from a fiscal perspective. So I think that is going to be one of the big challenges we see. So it'll be interesting to see how that starts panning out moving forward.

And in terms of financial impact you mentioned there, I was at a recent roundtable in Manchester where they spoke a lot about competing priorities between what the tenant wants and what the government wants around the net zero and decarb. A lot of people are talking about the fact that some of these air source heat pumps are costing a fair bit more for the tenants to run. How do you think that's going to impact the work that is necessary for us to do to this decarb?

Yeah, massively. And I think that's why at moment, the stance that we are taking towards our decarbonisation programme is that we aren't really removing gas from our portfolio at present.

And that kind of goes back to my first initial point between this electricity and gas price disparity, gas being around 6p per kilowatt and electricity being about quadruple that. It just means that our air source heat pumps are having to run at a coefficient of performance or an efficiency of over 350% which is more than attainable for an air source heat pump right, in the prime conditions it's put in. Even if you halved that electricity price, move the tax over, it would mean that our air source heat pumps aren't having to operate at such a high efficiency even though they can. And I think that's the challenge here, for us to make that transition over and to ensure the customer's affordability, which for Orbit and I think all housing associations is so paramount, that disparity needs to truly be addressed. And we can do bits, we can put renewable energy on our roofs, PV, we can put solar diverters into our tanks, which is a feature which I really love. But, we do need to factor that in and I think that's what the government truly needs to address is that disparity in price. Because if that was kind of fixed, it would mean that the affordability for the customers would be supported more.

Of course, yeah, absolutely. I've heard that from a number of organisations. In terms of orbit's priority though, obviously we're balancing the tenant affordability between the decarbonisation which the whole sector needs to achieve. What in terms of specific works are Orbit prioritising air source, heat pumps, windows, solar panels, what's your strategy?

We are doing a lot of renewable energy. We’re looking at our roof placements when we're getting decarbonisation works in for a roof replacement, putting PV onto our roofs and as I say, kind of solar diverters as well. Which is a lot more of a financially appeasing way of storing energy for us rather than kind of mass rollout of battery which we would love to do at a later date, of course.

We obviously are looking at our technology in terms of our mechanical, electrical or our heating elements as well. I think that goes again with that. Balancing that a lot of our portfolio is on gas and that is going to be the big challenge for us. But where we've got LPG, where we've got oil, where we've got solid fuel back boilers because we do have a lot of rural properties and where we've got things like, other heating options which aren't as efficient, that's where the air source heat comes from. Pollution is truly coming. And we're doing a lot of work with the likes of Dakin and people like that to look at air to air as well. Because you can see today, it's very, very warm today. And one of the pieces of work that I did through my dissertation was looking at climate adaptation and actually the impact that overheating is going to have. I think that's one of the challenges that a lot of our retrofit to date has been very much focused on, retaining heat within a building. And actually if we move forward into 2050, moving forward to 2080, there is going to be a time where we really want to push that heat out and how we can actually cool our buildings. And I think air to air solutions on heat pumps are a fantastic option for that because they can both heat and cool.

Interesting. Okay, so potentially then looking at the long term climate impacts, we might need to start cooling our properties.

100% yeah. So the modelling I did through my dissertation, which kind of demonstrated what we wanted to do is look at a strategic approach to climate adaptation investment across our portfolio.

There's lots of things that climate adaptation covers such as flooding, everything like that. But I focus very much on overheating because that is a massive customer impact. And I think moving forward that's what we are going to have to start looking at how we can build shading opportunities for our homes and have that mechanical cooling. Not that we want to be rolling that as the first solution, but if there's no alternative in terms of what we could do from a passive perspective, I think that's where the industry will have to move to.

Of course, yeah, that's interesting because a lot of the roles that we get are for insulation. So, internal wall insulation, external wall insulation, it's all about keeping heat in homes.

In terms of kind of moving forwards then obviously we mentioned about the challenges in the sector. How are we going to have to adapt moving forwards in terms of the work that we're carrying out and the long term strategy.

I think it's aligning our strategies as much as possible. Thinking about what we need to do in terms of our heat networks, decarbonisation, building safety, our cyclical works and our asset improvement programmes. I think it's about aligning that and kind of having this clear strategy where the different funding mechanism can support each other. I do especially think on the heat network side that's going to be really, really paramount that we need to utilise the funding that we have because we've got some big regulatory changes coming in, which I think is probably one of the concerns I have for the sector at the moment. And I think it's a little bit of an area that's not covered.

Around the regulatory changes?

With heat networks. Yeah, I do think heat networks in terms of the billing aspect, the monitoring aspect and that's a very niche specialty that a lot of social housing organisations probably don't have within their employee base. The work around there to understand our heat networks, operate them correctly, and then also meter and bill them correctly to our customers, that is going to be a big change for housing associations. I think aligning programmes where you can with those kind of pieces of work as well.

And what programmes would we need to roll out?

So thinking about if you've got a heat network which is underperforming and you've had your optimisation surveys with the HNS funding that's currently available, which is really great opportunity. Thinking about what we can do in terms of the other areas that we want to upgrade. So thinking about, if there's kitchens that need to be upgraded or the windows, packaging this work, so it's not just a heat network project, it's a basically a scheme project and aligning those and thinking where there's complements that they can help and support.

It's also the thought about if you're thinking about additionality, potentially upgrading that heat network may offer more heat load for you to build further apartments or anything like that onto that block. Instead of seeing things very siloed, which I do think, in my short time in the sector, I think is what I've seen is often things are very siloed. This is building safety, this is asset investment, this is decarbonisation, this additionality. Actually they need to blend together and I think that's when you come with these really great solutions moving forward.

Interesting topic. So one of the things that I've heard recently, in the sector and I'll be interested to get your opinion on this, given you've come up through the EPC route is actually around energy performance certificates and around their effectiveness really. I know from my limited understanding of social housing that a lot of this work is based around the EPC data we get in.

Do you think that the way that we do EPCs and the way that we currently grade properties needs to adapt, moving forwards?

I think it's a bit of a two pronged, I suppose. EPCs are being utilised at present or previously have been utilised for things that they were never really built to do. To determine funding, to determine where we progress and what we invest in our properties.

Now EPCs were developed to give an understanding of the efficiency of a home when you're buying or renting it out. It's them being kind of taken as the basis because that's what there and you have to take it with a pinch of salt. It's a standard assessment procedure for EPCs, I think in terms of EPCs being utilised in retrofit as the basis of what you're doing to inform your programmes. I think there's a few challenges. EPCs can be up to 10 years old. So if you've done any asset investment between the date of that EPC to the date that you're currently looking at it, to invest in your programmes, there can be a lot of change there. And I think that's where the modelling software’s that are available, I'm not going to say their names because I'm not in a pyramid scheme. But that's why I think those modelling software’s really, really do open up those opportunities there for us to overlay what's happened in our asset investment to get a more clear score on EPC.

The EPC methodology got updated four days ago now, which is fantastic, which is great. I think in terms of now with the carbon outlet from that, that's more realistic. What I would say, though, the affordability metric, the EPC, what's lays behind the kind of graph of it. The cost metrics were not updated at that point. So I would be careful and, I suppose heed a bit of warning if you're utilising EPCs to truly understand how affordable a home is, if that's what you're grading it as. I think that's where being able to use, more realistic fuel price tariffs that are available, would be where I would edge forward to when you are modelling, any retrofit moving forward.

Again, though, an EPC is an affordability metric. It doesn't tell you about the quality of your home in terms of the structural integrity or anything like that. And I think sometimes what I've seen in the sector, people say, “how can it be an EPC B. But there's damp and mould issues”. The EPC isn't looking for damp and mould. The EPC is an affordability metric. And that's where I think there needs to be kind of a little bit of an understanding of the limitations of what an EPC can truly offer.

Certainly. Yeah. That broadly works along the. The line of conversation that we had at the roundtable in Manchester. It follows on.

Do you think there's enough cooperation in between social housing organisations and between. Obviously we mentioned there about the competing priorities. Do you feel like the asset investment team, the repairs team decarbonisation, do you think that all works sort of effectively as one, or do you think the sector can do more?

Again a bit of two prong, I suppose, internally. I've seen Orbit move in leaps and bounds in terms of its collaboration across those. And the teams now do work really, really well together and that's where we're kind of having these scheme approaches. I do think whether that's the same for all organisations, I can't comment really. But in terms of collaboration between housing associations, I do think there's more opportunity to do more, but I think through the likes of the West Midlands Combined Authority, or organisations like Shap, who I sit on a board for, and also the partnerships that have developed through the Wave three funding, so the Midlands Net Zero Hub. Orbit are also part of the London Council Strategic Partnership and that brings that collaboration and that learning opportunity to the housing associations. And I do think I'm seeing more and more of that collaboration. I do think there's probably more that can be done there, but I think it's moving in the right direction.

And obviously you’ve been at Orbit now for how many?

Four and a half years.

So what have you seen internally at the organisation that's changed over those four and a half years?

I think it's changed leaps and bounds. I think that customer focus, that customer journey, that customer everyday excellence to our customers has now been the kind of key focus. Which I think is really fantastic. At the end of the day that is what we're here for. We're here to offer the best customer service to our residents. So I think that's been a real good development.

I think as well what we've learned from the decarbonisation perspective is how to adapt. Initially it was all being delivered through our strategic asset management team. That was quite taxing. We're not a delivery team, we're a strategy team. And what we've done there is recruit to support that mechanism now that we've got our decarbonisation strategy where I sit on and decarbonisation delivery. So having the two separate. I think that is what has worked really well. From an Orbit perspective has really shown how it's invested correctly in the teams.

Looking to the future as we are saying in this topic, what do you think the industry as a whole needs to start focusing on moving forwards?

I think understanding what the funding mechanisms are going to be moving forward. Obviously the government announcement is fantastic, that there's going to be about £13 billion coming through. Right. But understanding how that's going to be given to us or how we have to bid for it, I think that early sight of that is what we need to move to.

In terms of retrofit in general, there has been a very key focus and rightfully so in a lot of instances on fabric. But I would like to see further development of mechanical and electrical being kind of paramount to that. Having in the PAS process sibse or other M and E qualifications named as designers. The Heat Networks as well is a big one. That's the focus I think the sector needs to understand because that's not just a technical M and E perspective, that's how you're billing and supporting customers as well. I think there's a lot of moving parts within the sector, but I think we've done an amazing job so far with the competing priorities that we do have.

Future proofing is important. How do we get more people into the sector?

It’s a really great question. I think it's upskilling the teams that we currently have available to us as housing associations. I think we do need to be dynamic in how we approach people that are working for us and offer them upskilling and training. I've been able to fully capitalise on that with Orbit and that's got me into the position that I'm in and I'll be fully grateful.

I think also investing in your teams. And again, Orbit's done that with me, which has got me to the position that I'm in now that I can act as that informed client unit. I think bringing more people into the housing association sector, it's really hard because no one ever goes, like we said earlier, “that I want to work for a housing association”. However, I do think there's so many benefits and what we can offer people and also what you're delivering to some of the most vulnerable people in society. In terms of the retrofit side, I think it is working with our contractors and offering training opportunities and, likes of the WMCA and Sustainable Housing Action Partnership, that's what they're trying to do, trying to upskill roles. And especially as we move that electrification over, away from gas, we truly do need to kind of upskill those who have been previously working on gas. Right.

I do think as well that having an informed client unit. When I say an informed client unit as a housing association, I think it's that fact that you're not fully always relying on consultancy to deliver your work. So if you are, that you understand what you're liaising with. So I think it's thinking about those university degrees that you want to potentially get in those graduate roles that you can then bring these people on because they've got the skill sets, they just need to have that work experience. Application. I think that's kind of where it would be at. We've demonstrated it's only a growing area. So there's so much work and it's going to be work for a considerable amount of time to do it.

And what would you like to see more from certainly the contractors that support Orbit, but also sector wide from the private sector in order to support the kind of social housing journey that we're on?

Our contractor who we're working with has been absolutely fantastic. The social value spend, I think what we can give more to our customers, I think that's always beneficial.

And I do think working collaboratively, we've worked very collaboratively with our contractor Wates throughout the decarbonisation which has been really fantastic and, and that's excelled our delivery massively. We've over delivered on our SHTF projects which is fantastic.

So I think that collaboration and I don't think that's just from the contractor, I think from the housing association side working together, being transparent, sharing data, rather than just instruct. I think that's the difference here because we're all on this learning journey and often that can create a bit of friction and can actually impact your delivery negatively. So collaboration within the sector and with the contractors I think would be key.

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